Introductions

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Re: Introductions

Post by trollblood2008 on Tue Oct 06, 2009 5:32 pm

Tshern wrote:You are aware of the fact that only one of the organizations killed millions?

Rather dead than in jail for voicing my opinion in a supposedly free nation.
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Re: Introductions

Post by Jolkuna on Tue Oct 06, 2009 5:48 pm

Are you saying soviet Russia was not a free nation?
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Re: Introductions

Post by trollblood2008 on Wed Oct 07, 2009 12:16 am

Jolkuna wrote:Are you saying soviet Russia was not a free nation?

That must be a trick question. Is freedom dictated by the government or is it given to man? Plus, any nation(including my homeland) that puts the brakes on free speech is less than free. Wilson was a dictator, as was Stalin.
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Re: Introductions

Post by Tshern on Wed Oct 07, 2009 12:29 am

You really think the USA has free speech now? Heck, the very month Rupert Murdoch bought MySpace a lot of anti-Bush comments were coldly erased.

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Re: Introductions

Post by Jolkuna on Wed Oct 07, 2009 12:42 am

My roommate was born in Sovie Russia and he says he felt free enough there. People in soviet Russia could vote like everyone else, they were also more equal than most people nowadays.


If we use freedom of speech as the indicator I live in a good place, though Finland has fallen a bit last year.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Press_Freedom_Index
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Re: Introductions

Post by trollblood2008 on Wed Oct 07, 2009 12:51 am

Tshern wrote:You really think the USA has free speech now? Heck, the very month Rupert Murdoch bought MySpace a lot of anti-Bush comments were coldly erased.

Hell no! Welcome to socialism 101. The best way to control the people is to control the conversation. Free speech is not the only indicator of a free society. Free elections are one more. Russia had elections where everyone was a Party member, so no real freedom of choice. USA is getting there. The line between our parties is so thin anymore no one can see the difference. The simularities between USSR and the modern USA are fucking scary. I fully think of liberalism as a disease and the only cure is true conservatism, not statism. But we are tredding to some really thick stuff here, so I am leaving it here.
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Re: Introductions

Post by Tshern on Wed Oct 07, 2009 1:08 am

Are you implying socialism as such calls for controlling conversation and ideas? If so, you might actually want to know what are you talking about. The USSR had nothing to do with real socialism or communism and same goes for countries like China.

Remember, we haven't entered a prohibited zone. All this goes on this forum.

Anyways, neither extreme works in the world we live in now. Anarchocapitalism works even worse, because it simply deprives people of, well, everything unless they have loads of cash and in no time only a handful of people do. So, essentially things would be the way they are now, but no-one would have any free services. Anarchocapitalism is a silly idea and fails hard.

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Re: Introductions

Post by trollblood2008 on Wed Oct 07, 2009 1:17 am

Tshern wrote:Are you implying socialism as such calls for controlling conversation and ideas? If so, you might actually want to know what are you talking about. The USSR had nothing to do with real socialism or communism and same goes for countries like China.

Remember, we haven't entered a prohibited zone. All this goes on this forum.

Anyways, neither extreme works in the world we live in now. Anarchocapitalism works even worse, because it simply deprives people of, well, everything unless they have loads of cash and in no time only a handful of people do. So, essentially things would be the way they are now, but no-one would have any free services. Anarchocapitalism is a silly idea and fails hard.

I am for a free market, not Anarchocapitalism. Free markets work, but like all forms of economics, they have their own failures. Greed is the big boogeyman right now. Corruption is another issue in all governments. The US is full of it, for the last about 100 years or so(short maybe 8 years of Regan, nevermind that whole Iran-Contra thing). The original purpose of the US was a free nation that was based on free market principles with the states controlling most of the rights. It was working fine until the Wilson era. I think England was the same way until certain members of the royal family took power. The whole "social justice" economic policy doesn't work. When you elevate someone above someone else(in this case the "poor" above the "rich") someone gets left in the cold. Statism destroys economies. Ever wonder why most nations have had to redraft their constitutions? It was to limit the power of the state. Some state programs are good. The government giving control of GM to the unions, not so much. That is the equivilent of giving the prisoners control of the jail.
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Re: Introductions

Post by Tshern on Wed Oct 07, 2009 12:38 pm

The corruption happens in all large countries, so the USA is definitely not the only one to blame there. While good ol' Ronnie was one of the main perpetrators, you must remember that the ethnic cleaning project known as the drug war was continued by both H.W. Bush and Clinton.

Free markets don't really work either. The problem is that it always comes down to the fact that everyone is not capable of getting the same chances and money rules over the lives of people. So far I believe the Scandinavian model is where it's at. To support this claim, the latest HDI that was published on, I believe, 5th of October 2009, the worst ranking Scandinavian country was Denmark (14th). Norway and Iceland both ranked to top three...

Funny thing, we have actually been going through the American constitution and the independence process at the university. A weird case indeed.

No, in the Scandinavian model we do not elevate anyone above the rest. The rich already have more than they need, they can afford to pay more taxes. They use many of the services just the same way the poor people do.

Did you know that ideas evolve over time? For example slavery is something that has been forbidden in all sorts of bills of rights after it became less socially acceptable.

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Re: Introductions

Post by trollblood2008 on Wed Oct 07, 2009 7:06 pm

Tshern wrote:The corruption happens in all large countries, so the USA is definitely not the only one to blame there. While good ol' Ronnie was one of the main perpetrators, you must remember that the ethnic cleaning project known as the drug war was continued by both H.W. Bush and Clinton.

Free markets don't really work either. The problem is that it always comes down to the fact that everyone is not capable of getting the same chances and money rules over the lives of people. So far I believe the Scandinavian model is where it's at. To support this claim, the latest HDI that was published on, I believe, 5th of October 2009, the worst ranking Scandinavian country was Denmark (14th). Norway and Iceland both ranked to top three...

Funny thing, we have actually been going through the American constitution and the independence process at the university. A weird case indeed.

No, in the Scandinavian model we do not elevate anyone above the rest. The rich already have more than they need, they can afford to pay more taxes. They use many of the services just the same way the poor people do.

Did you know that ideas evolve over time? For example slavery is something that has been forbidden in all sorts of bills of rights after it became less socially acceptable.

The issue now is not that free markets are bad, but that people are. That is why communism never works. The manifesto is a great idea, just not implementable due to human corruption. That idea can be applied to many aspects of today's world. Islam is not a bad religion, but there are bad muslims. I am sure you get my point. As for progressive taxes, they are not as good as flat taxes without any loopholes. Russia went to one about 10 years back and their revenue jumped 350% or so in the first year. 15% of Bill Gates income is a hell of a lot more than 15% of mine. The rich still pay more and no one is being dragged through the mud. And Regan was a good president who had some bad ideas. Star Wars, Iran-Contra and the war on drugs being atop the list. Obama is worse than carter. We are preparing to monetize our debt, which means hyper-inflation. At least all you euros have figured out that you can't do that kind of stuff without crashing your economies.
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Re: Introductions

Post by Tshern on Wed Oct 07, 2009 8:44 pm

So free markets would work if the people were totally different? Then we are again that much closer to a happier planet.

Of course progressive taxation is better. It guarantees that the government has more money to invest to education, healthcare and whatnot. The stuff sane governments tend to put their money into. And yes, naturally Bill Gates' 15% is more than yours, but he still could easily pay, say, 30% or even 65%. It's not like he actually needs the money. Owning millions or billions automatically means you are not being dragged through the mud.

Reagan a good President? Sure, sure. I just really can't see your side of the picture. He started the drug war and the prison building boom, was at least partially responsible for Oliver North's shenanigans and whatnot. Yeah, what a guy!

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Re: Introductions

Post by trollblood2008 on Wed Oct 07, 2009 9:16 pm

Tshern wrote:So free markets would work if the people were totally different? Then we are again that much closer to a happier planet.

Of course progressive taxation is better. It guarantees that the government has more money to invest to education, healthcare and whatnot. The stuff sane governments tend to put their money into. And yes, naturally Bill Gates' 15% is more than yours, but he still could easily pay, say, 30% or even 65%. It's not like he actually needs the money. Owning millions or billions automatically means you are not being dragged through the mud.

Reagan a good President? Sure, sure. I just really can't see your side of the picture. He started the drug war and the prison building boom, was at least partially responsible for Oliver North's shenanigans and whatnot. Yeah, what a guy!

So we should punish people for their success? Fuck that. And people wonder why a welfare mooch won't get off their ass and find work or make themselves better. Why do that when the govenment will steal the fruits of someone else's success? Forgot all the bad stuff guys like Regan did for a minute. Okay, he did bad things. Welcome to be a politician. Clinton did plenty of bad things(Kosovo anyone?) but people talk about how great of a president he was. Regan brought the US out of hyper-inflation and the gas crisis created by Carter. He lowered unemployment to record levels. So if you weigh his good vs his bad, he wound up doing a lot for his country. Free market capatialism is not some evil thing, in fact it worked fine for nearly 150 years in the US. Then this social engineer named Wilson came along and decided that we should muck up the whole damn system in order to preserve "social justice". See my issue with people that think the "state" is the answer. The state generally causes more issues than it resolves. By the way did you see the Australia just had to up their intrest rates to fight growing hyper-inflation there? That is what is coming in the US, thanks in large part to the liberals and bleeding heart conservatives. If you want to know what the US founding fathers really thought of a centeralized government read them. Don't listen to morons who think they know, read what they said.

“We The People are the rightful masters of both Congress and the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution but to overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution.”
–Abraham Lincoln

“I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them.” --Thomas Jefferson

“Experience has shown that even under the best forms of government those entrusted with power have, in time, and by slow operations, perverted it into tyranny.” - Thomas Jefferson
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Re: Introductions

Post by trollblood2008 on Wed Oct 07, 2009 9:18 pm

Tshern wrote:So free markets would work if the people were totally different? Then we are again that much closer to a happier planet.

Of course progressive taxation is better. It guarantees that the government has more money to invest to education, healthcare and whatnot. The stuff sane governments tend to put their money into. And yes, naturally Bill Gates' 15% is more than yours, but he still could easily pay, say, 30% or even 65%. It's not like he actually needs the money. Owning millions or billions automatically means you are not being dragged through the mud.

Reagan a good President? Sure, sure. I just really can't see your side of the picture. He started the drug war and the prison building boom, was at least partially responsible for Oliver North's shenanigans and whatnot. Yeah, what a guy!

So we should punish people for their success? Fuck that. And people wonder why a welfare mooch won't get off their ass and find work or make themselves better. Why do that when the govenment will steal the fruits of someone else's success? Forgot all the bad stuff guys like Regan did for a minute. Okay, he did bad things. Welcome to be a politician. Clinton did plenty of bad things(Kosovo anyone?) but people talk about how great of a president he was. Regan brought the US out of hyper-inflation and the gas crisis created by Carter. He lowered unemployment to record levels. So if you weigh his good vs his bad, he wound up doing a lot for his country. Free market capatialism is not some evil thing, in fact it worked fine for nearly 150 years in the US. Then this social engineer named Wilson came along and decided that we should muck up the whole damn system in order to preserve "social justice". See my issue with people that think the "state" is the answer. The state generally causes more issues than it resolves. By the way did you see the Australia just had to up their intrest rates to fight growing hyper-inflation there? That is what is coming in the US, thanks in large part to the liberals and bleeding heart conservatives. If you want to know what the US founding fathers really thought of a centeralized government read them. Don't listen to morons who think they know, read what they said.

“We The People are the rightful masters of both Congress and the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution but to overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution.”
–Abraham Lincoln

“I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them.” --Thomas Jefferson

“Experience has shown that even under the best forms of government those entrusted with power have, in time, and by slow operations, perverted it into tyranny.” - Thomas Jefferson
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Re: Introductions

Post by Tshern on Wed Oct 07, 2009 10:07 pm

Punish them? Sure, because 250 million bucks a year is so much more significant than 200 million dollars a year. If you consider taxes to be a punishment, perhaps you should travel back to the realities of the world. And welfare mooching is bullshit. There are always going to be people who are defective, but their numbers are too small to actually matter. For a long time before the recession Finland actually had better employment figures than the USA although we coddle all the leeches of our society.

Why do the people need all the billions? It's not too hard to find several cases of wealth addictions where the rich assholes simply abuse the living daylights out of the so called common people. I really don't think people like that deserve the money in the first place and I would actually create a maximum income cap, but at the moment the Scandinavian model seems to be the more realistic one. You don't see us robbing countries just because the Vice President happened to be the head of a huge oil company.

150 years ago the world was not the place it is now. Using those times as an excuse to validate free markets isn't a good argument at all. Keep in mind though that I am not defending Carter, Clinton, Wilson or any of the American Presidents.

And Australia's hyper-inflation? In March their inflation stood at 2.5%. For hyper-inflation, refer to Zimbabwe. Or did I miss something, I don't follow Australian politics actively?

My professor actually studied the Constitution and American independence for a long time. From what I've learned from him and my own, umm, narrow studies, the original point was not really to create a country, but rather a league of independent states. I remember Samuel Adams saying something along these lines: "I confess, as I enter the Building I stumble at the Threshold. I meet with a National Government, instead of a Federal Union of Sovereign States." Did I get my thoughts somewhat correctly?

But yeah, the American history is funny. Everyone's equal bullshit and all...

Edit: My ideas of Clinton can be expressed as follows: Drug war and Newt Gingrich's welfare bill.

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Re: Introductions

Post by Reverend Red on Wed Oct 07, 2009 11:13 pm

You guys crack me up. Trollblood, what the fuck is wrong with you? Didn't they feed you enough nutritients as a baby?

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Re: Introductions

Post by trollblood2008 on Thu Oct 08, 2009 12:21 am

Reverend Red wrote:You guys crack me up. Trollblood, what the fuck is wrong with you? Didn't they feed you enough nutritients as a baby?

Sure did. And because things work for a nation with about 1/2(or is it a third) or the population on the US doesn't mean it will here. And my whole point is that free markets worked for 150 years because the Feds had nothing to do with them. The issues we are have now stem from regulations that are unconstitutional. Article 10 of the document strictly states that if something is not enumerated to the Federal government in the consitution then the states and the people thereof have the right to control it. I am done arguing my points. I think free markets work and you don't. Cool. I, unlike my more liberal friends, respect your views. All the more power to them. I hope that someday we can come to a middle ground where the people of the nation are not being raped by the government and are once again in solid control of their own destinies. And that includes helping out the poor all the way up to the "rich". No one should be left in the cold because of regulation.
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Re: Introductions

Post by Reverend Red on Thu Oct 08, 2009 8:46 am

It seems that non-third world countries are able to reassess and reconsider even their constitutions. It's a whole different world from what it was back when your constitution was written. Another old legal system is this law of Sharia, you might want to look into that. Something being old or historically important doesn't make it a valid basis for a country's moral and legal system.

If the government doesn't intervene and take care of the poor, who does? Suddenly big business or corporations will just start raising funds to help drug addicts or mental patients or single mums or immigrants? Doubt it. Hell, for all I care, the taxing could be kept at a lenient 100% and the goods spread equally.

I don't like the US government and I know they're fucking the middle classes and the poor. However, this is not because of legistlation, it's because you've got some shitty folks in control. The ideal situation is where the govt. can and will interfere - because democratically elected leaders are probably better for the nation than guys whose dad made a billion dollars and now they're super rich too - and the leaders are just and compassionate.

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Re: Introductions

Post by Jolkuna on Thu Oct 08, 2009 9:42 am

No personal insults Red, or I'll have to edit your posts Mad
Civilized conversation is something I'm sure you can do.
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Re: Introductions

Post by Tshern on Thu Oct 08, 2009 3:32 pm

I don't think Americans should be so sensitive about the Constitution. It's an old paper and the world doesn't work the way it did when it was written. An outdated document written by a bunch of slave owners isn't exactly what I would keep as my personal gospel.

And more than anything I'd like all the people to be decent. Since that isn't going to happen I want the government to enforce rules that keep everyone above sea level.

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Re: Introductions

Post by Solnath on Thu Oct 08, 2009 9:33 pm

Tshern wrote:The corruption happens in all large countries, so the USA is definitely not the only one to blame there. While good ol' Ronnie was one of the main perpetrators, you must remember that the ethnic cleaning project known as the drug war was continued by both H.W. Bush and Clinton.

Free markets don't really work either. The problem is that it always comes down to the fact that everyone is not capable of getting the same chances and money rules over the lives of people. So far I believe the Scandinavian model is where it's at. To support this claim, the latest HDI that was published on, I believe, 5th of October 2009, the worst ranking Scandinavian country was Denmark (14th). Norway and Iceland both ranked to top three...
[...]
No, in the Scandinavian model we do not elevate anyone above the rest. The rich already have more than they need, they can afford to pay more taxes. They use many of the services just the same way the poor people do.

Finland is a Nordic country, but not a part of Scandinavia.

trollblood2008 wrote:The original purpose of the US was a free nation that was based on free market principles with the states controlling most of the rights.

To that, I can only refer you to:
George Carlin wrote:This country was founded by slave owners who wanted to be free.

Oh boy, this next one has so many points I want to address that I'll just mark them out to keep this relatively brief.

trollblood2008 wrote:
Tshern wrote:So free markets would work if the people were totally different? Blah, blah blah.

So we should punish people for their success? (1) Fuck that. And people wonder why a welfare mooch won't get off their ass and find work or make themselves better. (2) Why do that when the govenment will steal the fruits of someone else's success? (3) Forgot all the bad stuff guys like Regan did for a minute. Okay, he did bad things. Welcome to be a politician. (4) Clinton did plenty of bad things(Kosovo anyone?) but people talk about how great of a president he was. Regan brought the US out of hyper-inflation and the gas crisis created by Carter. (5) He lowered unemployment to record levels. (6) So if you weigh his good vs his bad, he wound up doing a lot for his country. (7) Free market capatialism is not some evil thing, in fact it worked fine for nearly 150 years in the US. (Cool Then this social engineer named Wilson came along and decided that we should muck up the whole damn system in order to preserve "social justice". See my issue with people that think the "state" is the answer. The state generally causes more issues than it resolves. (9) By the way did you see the Australia just had to up their intrest rates to fight growing hyper-inflation there? (10) That is what is coming in the US, thanks in large part to the liberals and bleeding heart conservatives. If you want to know what the US founding fathers really thought of a centeralized government read them. Don't listen to morons who think they know, read what they said. (11)

“We The People are the rightful masters of both Congress and the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution but to overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution.”
–Abraham Lincoln (12)

“I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them.” --Thomas Jefferson(13)

“Experience has shown that even under the best forms of government those entrusted with power have, in time, and by slow operations, perverted it into tyranny.” - Thomas Jefferson(14)

Righto, let's see what I can get out of this:

1 - Punishment? How is giving away money that you do not need a punishment? Such a mentality merely brings out a fundamental problem in education and upbringing. No one who's anything that might even remotely resemble common decency would not demand someone who is barely keeping themselves alive to spend half their money for the benefit of others. However, if you make twenty million a year, there is no way you will need even ten million of that and thus there is nothing morally wrong with asking or demanding that that money go to people who would actually need it to live within non-LDC conditions.

2 - I agree somewhat with this point. For example, Reddie's a really lazy son of a bitch who'll probably never contribute to society more than helping psychiatrists meet their quotas. On the other hand, if you start to argue that a person's value is determined by their actions, then you face the massive problem of thinking of a way to compare the values of people. Whatever your bases for estimating those values is, there will necessarily be grey areas and thus you should be careful when expressing seemingly simple ideas that have deep-running ethical problems.

3 - Governments are not big, bad boogeymen as you might think. Governments are centralised institutions whose purpose is to unify the people of the country. All the citizens are equally responsible for the government and vice-versa. Simply because the government decides to tax some people more than others does not, at least should not, mean that they are being mean, but rather that the government sees the bigger picture well enough to judge a redistribution of wealth. After all, that is their designated job.

4 - Merely because politicians have since forever lied and corrupted the public's sense of justice does not mean it's right. It is not and will not be, even if those in power continue to lie for the next ten thousand years.

5 - Reagan did not bring the USA out of a hyper-inflation because there was none (as there never has been in your country) and while Carter did screw up, he also lacked support which crippled his capacity to operate as a President of the US. If you want to blame someone about that, blame the Republican spin-doctors.

6 - Unemployment and inflation are flip-sides of the same coin. Reducing one increases the other. Both can be adjusted simultaneously, but it always, without fail, leads to trouble.

7 - Everyone always does a lot for what they believe in. Doesn't mean it's good (which it, 99% of the time, isn't) and it doesn't mean it's helpful in the long-term.

8 - Except for the fact that pretty much every twenty years the market system has collapsed, causing a recession. It works, just not very well.

9 - Ever heard of the concept of "social contract"? It's what the state exists to enforce. Do you ever sleep well at night, secure in your bed with the knowledge that it's likely you'll wake up in the morning? That comfort stems from the state, which makes sure that the people it governs are safe.

10 - Nope, sorry, still not hyper-inflation. You want economic catastrophes? Use Iceland as an example (of the free market economy "working").

11 - That sounds familiar to what Christians say about the Bible when questioned about other sects' beliefs and their respective veracities. Also, the Founding Fathers might have believed that the Moon revolves around the Sun; simply because they wrote down something once that people have since venerated is no reason to think that they shit gold. Case in point: arguments from authority are fallacious. Oh, and the U.S. Constitution is not infallible.

12 - True, if you accept the sentiment that men should be ruled by unchangeable laws. I agree that they should not be ruled by the will of other men, but a compromise would be best in this situation.

13 - The first and by far strongest association I get from this quote is towards the Arms Race during the Cold War. Now, that was stupid.

14 - Absolutely true. So why not begin with tyranny?*


*Serious question. Benevolent dictatorship is by far the best form of government applied so far.

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Re: Introductions

Post by Reverend Red on Thu Oct 08, 2009 10:03 pm

Shit, Sol, you crack me up! Haha, dude, what the fuck is wrong with you? Didn't your mum feed you enough nutritients as a baby?

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Re: Introductions

Post by Solnath on Thu Oct 08, 2009 10:12 pm

It's called bourbon and gin, thank you very much. Don't blame my mother, I do my best to disassociate myself with her.

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Solnath

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Re: Introductions

Post by Tshern on Thu Oct 08, 2009 11:27 pm

I am well aware of the fact that Finland is not a part of the geographical area of Scandinavia. Then again, I didn't even say so in your quote.

Commenting on Sol's point number 5: Republicans alone were not to responsible. When both of the parties that actually matter are the same, the names don't really mean a thing.

And trollblood's quotes reflect their origins well. Hardly any of the so called founding fathers intended to create a unified nation.

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Tshern
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Re: Introductions

Post by trollblood2008 on Fri Oct 09, 2009 3:17 am

Can't we all just agree to disagree? I mean that too. Everyone has their political views. Hell I am sure there are things that you guys don't agree with each other on. But for the fun of it let's let mine be. I happen to be a free market capitalist, so the fuck what?! I don't judge any of you based on what you believe about politics and I feel like I am being heavily judged for my viewpoint. Let's just let this conversation die and let sleeping dogs lie shall we?

Edit:

The initial goal of the government in the consitution was to be limited to collecting taxes(yes that is in there), governing the military, overseeing interstate commerce and representing the will of the people of the states.

The Congress is enpowered with only 18 "powers" and the president only has like 5. So in a sense everyone that says that the US was not envisioned as a union is correct. The power lies with the states as independent entities in the original founding documents, with the Federal government there to oversee things that went on between the states.
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trollblood2008

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Re: Introductions

Post by Tshern on Fri Oct 09, 2009 2:49 pm

I saw a graph the other day that illustrated how during the last hundred or so years the federal budget and the budgets of all the states essentially flipped. Now the federal budget is around double that of the states combined. Seems like federalism is dying. Not sure what that tells about the future though.

Also, I find it funny that a lot of Americans want both federalism and a strong President. After all, increased federal activity undermines federalism as a system...

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Re: Introductions

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